To the Popish, or Catholick Reader. 3 PAPIST, or Catholick, chuse whether name thou hast a mind to (for, though I know, that, of late years, thou art proud of both, even of the name 'papist, as well as of the name 'catholick, yet I envy thee neither; only I would have thee remember, that that firebrand of hell, Hildebrand, commonly called Gregory the Seventh, was the first man who challenged it, as his sole right, to be called Papa, that is Pope, whence thou art called papist; and that divers are of opinion, as Hugo de Victore noteth, that, in some sense, the devil might be called a catholick.) I offer unto thee here a discourse touching Pope Joan, (if thou darest read it, for fear of falling into thy Pope's curse) whose popedom I will make good unto thee, not by the testimonies of Pantaleon, and Functius, and Sleidan, and Illyricus, and Constantius Phrygio, and John Bale, and Robert Barnes, because thou hast condemned their persons, and their books too, to hell; but by the testimonies of thy brethren, the sons of thy own mother, because as one saith, firmum est genus probationis, quod etiam ab adversario sumitur, ut veritas etiam ab inimicis veritatis probetur: That is a strong proof, which is wrung out of the adversary, when the enemies of truth are driven to bear witness unto the truth.' And, as another, Amici contra amicum, & inimici pro inimico, invincible testimonium est: which sounds, as I conceive it, thus: The testimony of a papist aganist a papist, and the testimony of a papist for a protestant, is without exception.' The reason why I have framed it in way of dialogue, was, that I might meet more fully with all the cavils, which thy proctors use in pleading of this case; and that it might be better understood of common readers, who are sooner gulled with continued discourses. If I have spoken truly, I would have thee bear witness with me unto the truth; if otherwise, I am content thou strike me: for, though I hold thy pa-pism, in so me respect, to be worse than atheism, agreeably to a speech fathered upon Epiphanius, xɛigwu ʼn nanomıçla rñç âmıçías, heresy is worse than infidelity, and, by consequent, thyself a dangerous neighbour to dwell by; because, as one of thy own doctors writes, certè periculosius est cum hæreticis, quam cum samaritanis quam cum gentilibus, aut Mahumetanis agere: It is, questionless, more dangerous to dwell by an heretick, than to dwell by a Samaritan, by an Heathen, by a Turk:' yet I am not so far out of love with thee, but I can be content to learn of thee, as St. Augustine did of Tyconius the heretick, if thou canst teach me. Yea, I profess, that, though it may be gathered out of 10 Campian, thy champion and Tyburn-martyr, that thou believest one heaven cannot hold 8. 9 1 Baron. Annot. in Martyrol. Rom. Octob. 16. b. Lorinus in Act. Apost. cap. xx. vers. 30. Anastasius Cochelet. Palæstrita Honoris D. Hallensis pro Lipsio, cap. i. pag. 6. 2 Bellarm. Lib. iv. de Ecclesia, cap. 4. Rhem. Annot. in Aet. xi. 26. in Martyrol. Rom. Jan. 10. c. 4 Annot. in 1 ad Cor. xiii. prohibit. 3 Baron. Annot. 5 In indice Lib. 6 Novatian. de Trinitate, cap. 18. num. 86. inter Opera Tertulliani. 7 Vives de Instrumento Probabilitatis. 8 Maldonat in Johan. iv. 9. Retract, cap. 18. 10 Ratio. 10. Lib. ii. thee and such as are of my opinion; though 'Costerus wish strangely, That he may be damned both body and soul, if any of us be saved; yet that hath not estranged me so far from thee, but that I wish thee well, even eyes to see the truth, and ingenuity to acknowledge it. WE Protestant. ELL met, and welcome home, Sir. What new book have you brought us down from London this mart? Pap. Oh, I have an excellent book, which discourseth at large about Pope Joan, whose popedom you cast in the catholicks teeth so often. Prot. What language is it in, I pray you? French, or Latin, or. English, and who made it? Pap. It was first written in French, but I have it in Latin. The author of it is one Florimondus Ræmondus. Prot. Florimondus Ræmondus! What is he, that I never heard of him before? Is he, and his book, of any credit? Pap. He himself is reputed a very famous man for life and learning; so that at this present, he is one of the French King's council at Bourdeaux, and, as for his book, it is of wonderful esteem. Prot. With whom I pray you? Pap. Even with Cardinal Baronius; for he holds it the worthiest discourse that ever was made of that argument: he professeth, that he could have found in his heart to have inserted it into his annals, but that it is somewhat too large; for by it, as the Cardinal further noteth, he hath so confounded all the pack of hereticks, who hereto fore upbraided the catholicks with it, that now they are ashamed of that which they have said. 5 Prot. But hath any man else the like opinion of it? 6 Pap. Yea, marry, Possevin is of the same mind; for Possevin saith, that he hath killed the hereticks outright; that, since the publishing of that book, the hereticks are silenced, they dare talk no more of a Pope Joan. Prot. And who else I pray you? Flo Pap. Lipsius, for he writ to his friend, that 'Ita plene omnia exequutus est, ut nobis nihil reliqui fit præter credere & assentiri.' rimondus had handled the matter so fully, that there remained nothing for any man to do, but to believe, and to say Amen to that which he had done. Prot. This is much: but have you read it? Pap. Read it! Yea I have read it again and again: besides, I have 1 Fieri nequit, ut Lutheranus moriens salvetur, gehennam evadat, ex æternis ignibus eripiatur. Si mentior, damner ipse cum Lucifero, saith Costerus. Resp. ad Refutationem Lucæ Osiandr. Proposit. 8. pag. ult. 2 An. 1602. Possevin. in errat. & prætermis. 1. 10. quæ habentur ad finem To. iii Apparat. fac. 3 Vir, cum primis illustris ac pius, & doctrina insignis, Baronius Annal. Tom. x. ad An. 853. Numb 62. 4 Præ cæteris commendan. dus, fama nobilis Florimundus: Baronius loco citato. 5 Sic confecit monstrum istud, ut novatores pudeat, quæ scripserunt vel somniasse. ibid. 6 Prorsus confodit Hæreticos qui Commentum illud sparserunt in vulgus, ut amplius ea de fabula hiscere non audeant. In Apparatu sae. verbo, Florimondus. See Gretser, Tom, ii. defens. Bellar. Lib. iii. Cap. 24. Col. 987. compared it with that which is written of the same argument, by Buchingerus, in Germany, by Charanza, in Spain, by Onuphrius, and Bellarmine, and Baronius, in Italy; by Turrian, and Bernartius, in Belgia; by Pontacus, in Aquitania, by Genebrard, and Papyrius Massonus, in France; by Saunders, by Cope, by Harding, by Father Parsons, and others of our own country. Prot. And what say you now, after the reading of all these, to the story of Pope Joan? Tell me in good earnest, and dissemble not. 5 2 4 Pap. I say, the very truth is, that the whole story of Pope Joan is 'a fable, a fond and vain fable, a3 mere fable, an heretical fable, a ridiculous fiction, and so known to the learneder sort of protestants among you; but that you will not leave to delude the world with it, 'for lack of other matter. Yea, I say further, there are so many improbabilities and moral impossibilities in this tale, as no man, of any mean judgment, discretion, or common-sense, will give credit thereto, but will easily see the vanity thereof; and, in a word, ' I say, he was a knave that devised it, and he is a fool that believeth it. 9 Prot. Now this is excellent in good truth, I see there is mettle in you: But what reason have you on your side, that you are so peremptory? Did it run for courant, without controulment, till within these forty years, or thereabout, to wit, till the year 1566, that Onuphrius, the friar, began to boggle at it? Was not Onuphrius the first that ever, by reason, sought to discredit the report of it? And yet doth not even he confess, that many men of worth, as well as of ordinary sort, believed it for a truth? Is it not to be found in Marianus Scotus, in Sigebert, in Gotefridus Viterbiensis, in Johannes de Parisiis, in Martinus Polonus, in Petrarch, in Boccace, in Ranulfus Cestrensis, in Johannes Lucidus, in Alphonsus de Carthagena, in Theodoricus de Niem, in Chalchondylas, in Wernerus Rolenink, in Platina, in Palmerius, in Nauclerus, in Sabellidus, in Trithemius, in Volaterran, in Bergomensis, in Schedel, in Laziardus, in Fulgosus, in Textor, in an epistle written by the universities of Paris, Oxford, and Prague, to all at Rome; in Mantuan, in Crantius, in Charanza, and a number more of your own faction, and of your own friends? of which some were Grecians, some Italians, some Spaniards, some French, some Germans, some Polonians, some Scots, some English, and yet never a one of them a Lutheran. Yea, do we not find it in some of your stories set down in pictures? And is not so much to be gathered by that image of her's, which is set up amongst the rest of the images of the Popes, in the renowned church of Siena in Italy, and is to be seen there at this day; which the Bishop of that place would not suffer to be defaced, at the last repairing of that church, though your Jesuits 10 1 Onuph. Annot. in Plat. in vita Joh. viii. 2 Harding inh is answer to Juel's apology 3 N. D. Part. ii. C. 5. Nura. xxi. p. 391. of the 3 Convers. 6 Idem Num. xxi. p. 391. 4 Idem Num. xxvi. p. 403. 7 Idem Num. xxxvi. p. 403. 5 lbid. 8 Impudentissime ficta, stultissime credita. Bernartius de utilitate legendæ Hist. Lib. ii, p. 105. in marg. 9 Multos & magni nominis viros historiam hanc suscipere, eam quoque vulgo veram existimari. Loco supra citato. 10 Barthol. Cass. ii. part. Catal. gloriæ mundi, nona Consideratio. Job. Turrecremat. in Summa, Lib. iv. Part. 2. Cap. 20. Carolus Molinæus, Comment. in Parisiens. Consueiud. Tit. Nu. 26. Cælius Rhodigin. Autiquarum Lect. Lib. viii. Cap. 1. did earnestly request him to deface it? Was there not made of old, for fear of such like after-claps, a stool of easement, on which they were set at their creation, for proof of their humanity? was there not a marble image set up, as a monument thereof, in that place where she miscarried, to wit, in one of the chiefest streets in Rome? Which monument was to be seen likewise within these few years, even in Pius the fifth's time. And is it not written by men among yourselves, That your popes, when they go in procession, refuse to go through that street, in detestation of that fact, and go further about? how y you, is it not even thus? Pap. It is written, I confess, that our popes, in detestation of that fact, when they go in procession to the Lateran church, refuse to go through that street, but they who write so mistake the matter. For the true reason why they turn out of that street, which is the nearer way, is, for that that street is angusta et anfractuosa, a narrow street, and such a one as winds this way, and that way, and in that respect, unfit for so great a train, as ordinarily accompanies the Pope, to pass orderly through; as 'Onuphrius, and Bellarmine, and Florimondus have observed. 2 3 4 Prot. Say you so? Why, but if it be true, which Philippus Bergomensis hath storied, this observation is false; for, Eo omisso, * saith he, speaking of the Pope's turning out of that place of the street, wherein dame Joan was delivered, Declinat ad diverticula, vicosque & sic, loco detestabili postergato, reintrantes, iter perficiunt quod cœperunt ;' that is, leaving that way, they turn into by-lanes, and by streets; and as soon as they are beyond that detestable place, they turn into their high-way again, and so go on in their procession. For if, upon their leaving that street, they enter into by-lanes and by-streets, and as soon as they are past that ominous place, turn in again; the reason why they leave that street cannot be, for that it is narrow and winding in and out. For no question, but those by lanes are as narrow; and by their turning out, and returning into the same way again, they wind as often in and out, as if they went along through the same street, though it were very crooked. But howsoever, shift it among you : for it sufficeth me, that you cannot deny, but that which I told you concerning this point, is written by men of your own religion; especially seeing Platina, who knew Rome well enough, and was desirous to cover the Popes nakedness herein, as much as he could with any honesty, confesseth, that this is probable enough. What have you to say to the rest of my speech? Pap. Much. For whereas you say Onuphrius was the first who by reason sought to discredit the report of it; that is not so. Johannes de Columna, a good writer of chronicles, long before Onuphrius, hath likewise utterly rejected the vanity of this fable, as Doctor Harding noteth. 6 Prot. Johannes de Columna's history is extant in Latin in the university library at Oxford; and in French, in New College library. 1 Loco supra citato 3 Fabula Joanne, cap. 21. p. 184. $ De Vitis Pont. in vita Joh. viii. 2 Lib. iii. de Rom. Pont. cap. 24. 4 In Supplement Chron. ad An. 858. 6 Confutat. of the Apology, Part iv. Fol. 166. But there is not one word, good, or bad, for, or against Pope Joan in it. If he rejected it, he rejected it by silence. Pap. But Johannes Aventinus rejected it in plain words: And he wrote a good many years before Onuphrius. 3 42 Prot. Johannes Aventinus (I grant) rejects it as a fable in one word, but he gives no reason of his rejecting of it. Besides, Bellarmine casts him off as a writer of small credit; and Baronius brands him, not merely for a scabbed sheep, but for an heretical scabby beast, destitute both of honesty and learning; and divers of your popes have cried down this history, as unworthy of reading; wherefore I see no reason, that his reasonless rejecting of it doth any way prejudice the truth of it. What have you else to say? 4 Pap. First I would know, Who told you there was such a marble image in one of the streets at Rome? Prot. Theodoricus de Niem, who was secretary to one of your popes, told me that; for Adhuc vetus statua marmorea illic posita figurativè monstrát hoc factum,' saith Theodoricus de Niem; that is, Unto this day an old marble image erected in that place showeth the matter under a figure. 6 Pap. Indeed I cannot deny but that in former ages many have said so, and, to confess a truth, I myself have read as much in Antonius, archbishop of Florence, and in Peter Mexia. But verily that image resembled no such thing. For neither was it like a woman lying in child-bed, nor was the boy, which was engraven by her, like a child in the swadling-clouts, but like one of some years. 9 Prot. This your exception is to no purpose; for that age was a learnless and a witless age. And therefore, perhaps, had no more skill in engraving, carving, and painting, than they had (of whom we read in an epistle of Sir Thomas More's unto Erasmus) who pictured an hare and a grayhound so like, that no man could know the one from the other, till he, full wisely, writ under, This is the dog,-This is the hare; as they of whom Appian writes, making mention of some, who were driven to set either under, or above their pictures, 'Hoc est bos, illud equus, hic arbor,' that men might know what kind of creature it was that they had painted. Questionless Æneas Silvius, pointing to a better time than that of Pope Joan's, condemns the painters and carvers thereof, for notorious bunglers, saying thus, 'Si ducentorum, trecentorumve annorum, aut sculpturas intueberis, aut picturas; invenies non hominum, sed monstrorum portentorumque facies; that is, If thou observe the engraven or painted images, which were made two or three-hundred years ago, thou shalt find, that they are faced more like monsters, and hobgoblins, than men. Now if they were such, what marvel, though intending to engrave a woman travelling, or rather newly delivered of a child, they did it but untowardly? But what I pray you doth that image represent, if it represent not Pope Joan ? 1 Annalium Boiorum, Lib iv. 2 Joh. Aventinus author parum probatæ fidei, saith Bell. Append ad Lib. de sum. pont. Cap. 10. 5 Lib. de Privilegiis & Juribus Imperii. 7 Inter opera Mori impressa Basil. Epist. 120. 8 Elian. de varia hist. Lib. x. |