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Pap. 'Cardinal Bellarmine seems to like of their opinion, who guess that some heathenish priest, who was about to offer sacrifice, and had his man before him, is denoted thereby. But I am rather of ? Florimondus's mind, who thinks it was an idol, even an image of some of the gods of the heathen.

Prot. If it had represented a sacrificing priest, and his man, the man should have been engraved behind, and not before his master. For the servant followeth his master, as the young man, that bare Jonathan's armour, followed Jonathan ; wherefore you have reason to leave Bellarmine in this. But why do you

incline to Florimondus ; doth he give you any reason for this opinion; or alledgeth any author of his opinion?

Pap. Yes he professeth that he followeth Onuphrius therein, who was a most diligent antiquary.

Prot. But he lyes in that. For Onuphrius speaks not one word good or bad of this marble image. He passeth it over in silence, as though no man had ever spoken of it.

Páp, I marvel if that be so. But yet I rest persuaded upon Florimondus's next reason, that that image resembled not Pope Joan. For if the engraver had purposed to express such a matter, and to continue thereby the memory thereof to the world's end, he would have set some inscription over it; for so do all men who ereet monuments for remembrances.

Prot. That is not so, for we read in Eusebius, that the woman who was cured by our Saviour Christ of her issue of blood, &c. erected, after the custom of the heathen, an image of him no doubt for remembrance sake. But we read of no inscription written upon it. In the book of : Joshua we read, that the Israelites were commanded to lay twelve stones upon an heap, as a memorial unto their children for ever: And yet it is plain by the circumstances, they set nothing thereon in writing. When you paint St. Peter, you paint him with keys in his hand, and set no inscription over his head, nor under his feet, as 'Baronius confesseth. Wherefore, for any thing I yet hear, it is most probable that it was set up for a monument of Pope Joan.

Pap. Enjoy your conceit. But '' I can tell you one thing : That image is now removed out of that place. For Sixtus Quintus, that great builder and mender of high-ways, when he made that street straight wherein that image was, was forced to remove that image.

Prot. Belike, that inage would have been some blemish unto the street, if it had remained ; and that made him move it.

Pap. Yea marry would it.

Prot. Now well fare his heart that was so careful to rid the streets of such a combersome monument. But who told you that Sixtus Quintuş removed it upon that occasion ?

1 Lib. iii. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 24.

2 Cap. citat. num. 6. 3) 1 Sam. xiv. 12, 13.

4. Cum Onuphrio Paovino antiquitatis perscrutatore diligentissimo vetus aliquod idolum existimavi. Florim. Ibid. 5 Inscriptionem præfixisset. pag. 188

Hi Cap. 14.

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att. ix. 21. 8 Cap. iv. 7. 8.

9 Obervat. in Annal. tom. i. ad an. 57. apud Possevin. in apparat. sac. verbo, Cæsar Baron.

10 Sixtus Quintus bunc vicum rectorem duci curavit, que factum est ut imago illa sublata sit. Florim. Cap. 21 Pag. 189.

whilst you

Prot. Florimondus.

Pap. Was it he? Then know him for a lyar, live;

for it was Pius Quintus, and not Sixtus Quintus, who removed it.

Prot. And Pious Qụintus removed it, and cast it into Tiber, not for that it disgraced the street; but ut memoriam historiæ illius aboleret ; that he might extinguish the memory of that shameful act. And this is witnessed not only by some travellers, who were at that time in Rome; but by · Elias Hassenmuller, one (once) of your fiery order of Jesuits. Your Florimondus will not deserve (I fear) half the commendation

you have given him. Pap. I doubt not but he will acquit himself like a man, of whatsoever you can say against him. But whence had you that of the stool of easement, I pray you, for in Bellarmine I read, that, ! de sede ad explorandum sexum nulla usquam mentio :' Of a stool of easement, to try the Pope's sex, there is no wh any mention; and in * Onuphrius, That it is but a mere toy, and an idle conceit of idle people.

Prot. That of the stool of easement, is recorded by Philippus Bergomensis, ' a man of great worth in his time, as Trithemius witnesseth. For upon mention made of Pope Joan's story, ' Ad evitandos similes errores statutum fuit,' 6 saith he, ne quis de cætero in B. Petri collocaretur sede, priusquam per perforatam sedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab ultimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur, That is, for avoiding like error in future tiines, it was decreed, that no man should be held for pope, till the youngest cardinal deacon had found by trial, while he set upon a stool of easement, that he was a man. And it is likewise testified by? Laonicus Chalchondylas. For upon relation of that story, he goes on thus: 'Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum, sed rem cognoscant, neque ambigant; pontificis creati virilia tangunt, & qui tangit, acclamat: Mas nobis Dominus est,' that is, Lest they should be deceived again, they make proof by feeling; and he that feeleth makes it known by crying out: We have a man Pope. And by Friar Roberto: For, • duxit me spiritus ad Lateranense Palatium, & posyit me in porticu ante sedes Porphyrii ubi dicitur probari Papa an sit homo. My good spirit (saith he) led me unto the palace of Lateran, and set me in the gallery before the chairs of Porphyry, wherein they say the Pope is tried whether he be a man or no man. And you may find as much in a later papist, who, within these few years, writ a book of the harmony of Romish magistrates, and in it this.

Pap. You say true indeed. For I now remember 9 Florimondus confesseth so much, yet he reproveth the author for writing so. But let us go on; for I long to hear of whom you heard that such a chair was to be seen, in the Pope's palace, within these few years.

1 Loco citato.

2 Historia Jesuitici Ordinis, Cap. 10. de Jesuitarum Patre & Matre. 3 Lib. iii. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 24•

4 Fabulosum, & ab imperito vulgo fictum. Annotat in Plat. in vit. Joh. viii.

5 Nobiliter doctus, historiographus celeberrimus Trith. de Scrip. Eccles verbo, Jacobus Bergomensis.

6 In Supplement. Chron. ad An. 858. 7 De Rebus Turcicis, Lib. vi. Pag. 98.

8 Lib. Visionum impressus Paris 1513. Cap. 3. Fol. 25.

I Cap. 18, p. 159. In ridiculorum authorum grege annumerandus esti

Prot. I heard that of 'Sabellicus. For, writing of the same matter * Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo marmorca sella (saith he) circa medium inanis, qua novus Pontifex continuò ab eius creatione recedit, ut sedentis genitalia ab ultimo diacono attrectentur; that is, There is to be seen at this day, in the Pope's palace, a chair of marble, wherein the new pope presently upon his election is set down, that, as he sits, the lowest deacon may make trial of his humanity by touching. And you may find as much in William Brewin, who lived in the year 1470; for, in Capella Salvatoris, saith he, Sunt duæ vel plures cathedræe de lapide marmoreo & cubio, cum foraminibus in iis sculptis, super quas cathedras, ut audivi ibidem, est probatio Papæ, utrum sit masculus, annon;' that is, In the chapel of our Saviour, there are two or three marble chairs with holes in them, wherein, as I heard there, they make proof whether the Pope be a man or no.

Pap. Florimondus acknowledgeth, there is yet such a chair, wherein the Pope sits after his election. But that he sits therein, to such an end as you speak, that he utterly denies.

Prot. And what is his reason?

Pap. • Because he sits therein not in a corner, but in the great church of St. John Lateran, whither all the world, almost, comes to see him ; where he is attended by the whole college of cardinals, and whereat there are many ambassadors of kings and princes; for a closer place were fitter for such a purpose. They might more conveniently have made trial of his humanity in the conclave where he was chosen.

Prot. And so they did, it seems; for, presently upon their electing of him, before they proclaimed him pope, they set him in a chair in their conclave, as you may read in the book of holy ceremonies, dedicated to Leo the Tenth. Whereby you may see how idly Bellarmine talks, who, taking upon him to clear the point, never speaks of his sitting in the chair in the conclave, but only of his sitting in certain other chairs at St. John Lateran's, as though he had been chaired only in publick, and not in private; and that he himself had said sufficiently to the point in question, by proving, that in publick there was no such conclusion tried with the Pope; whereas the conclusion was tried in secret. But can you tell me what the end is, why the pope sits in such a chair in publick ?

Pap. Marry to the end that thereby he may be put in mind, that he is not God, but man ; inasmuch as he stands in need of a closestool as well as others; for so saith Florimondus.

Prot. I promise you, and he had need be put in mind thereof. For, though some papist shamefully deny it, therere have been popish clawbacks, • who in plain words, have termed the Pope, as St. Thomas termed Christ, their Lord and God; and there are

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1 Æneid 9. Lib. i.

2 Wilhelmus Brewin in codice manuscripto de 7. Ecclesiis principalibus urbis Romæ.

3 Cap. xx. p. 176

4 Ibid p. 18% 5 Lib. iji. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 24.

6 Cap. xx. p. 177 and 118. 7 N. D. in his Warn-word to Sir Francis FTastings's Encounter I. Cap. ii. Fol. 30. 8 Cap. Cum

Inter. extrav. Joh. xxii. Impress. Paris. 1513, & Lugduni, 1555. 9 Joh. xx. 28

still' who give him such titles as are due to God, and ascribe like power to him and God. But methinks they should not need to have set him in such a chair to such a purpose; for his own necessity would have driven him to set bimself thereon ordinarily every day; and bis chamber-pot would have served to put him in mind of his humanity sufficiently. For Antigonus the Elder knew by that, that he was man and not God, as ? Plutarch writeth : Besides, methinks they should not have intended such a mystery by such a ceremony, because they set him therein before he was in his Pontificalibus; for, till he be mitered, till he be crowned, till he have received the keys, whereby iş denoted bis power to bind and loose; and a rod, whereby is denoted his power to punish the obstinate; methinks there should be no great fear of forgetting himself. For, till such ceremonies are performed, he is not in his ruff. Again, had it not been better, think you, if they had aimed at any such mark, to have caused a boy to come every morning unto the Pope's chamber-door (after the example of Philip, King of Macedonia) who should have whooped him out of his bed, and bid him remember, that he was mortal?

Pap. If you like not Florimondus's conjecture touching that ceremony, what say you to · Bellarmine's, which is: That he is set on such a stool, to signify how he is raised from base estate to supreme honour?

Prot. I say Bellarmine's conjecture is as improbable and fond as Florimondus's. For your Popes, since Pope Joan's days, have been chosen, for the most part, out of the number of your cardinals. And your cardinal's estate is not so base, as that he, who is advanced from that unto the papacy, can be truly said to be taken in any sort from off a close-stool. For they are generally princes o fellows. Yea some of them, you cannot but know, have not been ashamed to prefix their own names before their own king's, using these words; I and my King; wherefore, unless you can render me some better reason, why your Popes are set on such a seat, I shall remain persuaded, that, in former times, it was for proof of their humanity, upon the accident aforesaid.

Pap. Enjoy your opinion for me. But where read you that there was such an image in the church of Siena, which the Jesuits would 'have defaced, but that the bishop of the place would not suffer them?

Prot. That I have heard by many travellers, and read in Master Bell; both in his book of Motives concerning the Romish Religion, and in his ? Survey of Popery; whereunto never a papist of you all dare answer.

Pap. Yes we dare, though we do not. But I can tell you news : That image of Pope Joan, which was set up in the Church of Siena, is cast down by the commandment of Clement the Eighth, by the

1 Plane supremum in terris nomen. Stapleton. princip. fidei doctrin. præfat. ad Greg. xiii. 2 Part ii. Moral. Lib. de Iside & Osiride.

3 Stobæus Serm. 19. ex Æliano. 4 Lib. iii. de Rom, Pont. Cap. 24.

5 Cardinalatus celsitudo ac splendor, dignitati regiz comparatur, Sixtus v. in constitut. 5 in princip. & sect. Præterea Joh. Franciscus Leo in Thesauro Fori Ecclesiastici, Part. I. Cap. ii. Num. 1.

6 Lib. 2. Cap. 6. Conclus. iii. 7 Part III. Cap. š. p 191.

8 Florim. Cap. xxii. p. 19%.

P. 60

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means of Cæsar Baronius, at the request of Florimondus. Cæsar Baronius hath certified Florimondus so much by a letter, and, for joy, 'Florimondus hath published it unto the world.

Prot. What? Is that image cast down too? Florimondus might do well to make request to the present Pope, that those books which write of Pope Joan may be burned; in hope, that the present Pope will as readily burn the books, as Clement the Eighth threw down that image, and Pius Quintus the other. And so, in time to come, when all evidences are embezzled, and all monuments defaced, and made out of the way, it will be a plain case there was never any Pope Joan.

Pap. Oh! this angers you, I perceive. And yet why should you be angry at the throwing down of this ? For, suppose it had stood still, is there any sense, that, because of such an image, we should be bound the rather to believe there was such a Pope? I can tell you, if we believe painters and carvers, we may soon mar all; for, in St. Andrew's church at Bourdeaux, one of the excellentest churches in all France, our Saviour Christ is described ascending up to heaven upon the back of a flying eagle, which stands not well with the scripture.

Prot. That is true, if we believe your painters and carvers, we shall soon mar all indeed : For we find the Trinity painted by you, sometimes in the likeness of a man with three faces; sometimes in the likeness of a man with two heads, having a dove between them; both which fashions of painting the Trinity are monstrous, in Bellarmine's opinion. We find our Saviour Christ painted with long hair, as though he had been a Nazarite by vow; which conceit is controuled by*scripture. We find him set on a weather-cock upon the top of the temple of Jerusalem, as though that temple had had a spire-steeple like ours", which is neither so, nor so. We find the Virgin Mary treading on the serpent's head, which the the scriptures foretold, that Christ himself should do. We find her set out in a gown of wrought gold, whereas, no question, she was meanly appareled, and with a pair of beads in her hand; whereas, of a thousand years after Christ, there were no beads in the world. In like sort we find & Moses painted with two horns, 9 John Baptist in a raw camel's skin, "' John the Evangelist like a beardless boy, when he writ his gospel. Mary Magdalen in a loose gown, » St. Jerome in his cardinal's robes, all which is false as God is true. Besides, your painters recommend unto us a saint on hors ack, whom they call George; and another saint on foot, as big as a giant, whom they call Christopher; and a she saint, broken upon a wheel, and whom they call Catharine; and a fourth, drawn in pieces with horses, whom they call Hippolytus; whereas, in all antiquity, ' there is no mention of any such saints; so that you never spoke a truer word in your life, than this, That, if we believe painters and carvers, we shall

1 Page 195 2 Si ea, quæ ab artificibus manu finguntur, credamus esse verą, interdum veteris & novi Testamenti historiam pervertemus, &c. Florim. p. 19.3.

3 Lib. ii. de Imag. Cap. 8. 4 For Nazarites must drink no wine, Numb. vi. 3. yet our Saviour did, Mat. xi. 19, and xxvi. 29.

5 Tho. de Truxillo. Ord. Prædic. Domin. 1. Quadrag. conc. 1. 7 Teste Polydoro Virgil. de Invent. Rerum, Lib. r. Cap. 9. in Exod. xxxiv. & Aug. Steuchus in Recognit. Vet. Test. ad Hebraicam Verit. in Exod. xxxiv. 9 Jansen. Concord. Evang: Cap. xiij.

10 In novis Bibliis Sixti Quinti, & Clem. viii. yet he writ it ninety; ætatis annum excedens, ut docet Baron. Annal Tom. i. ad An.99. Num. %. 11 Scultingius Confessio Hieronymana. Polyd. Virg. de Invent Rerum, Lib. iv. 9. 12 For proof whereof, see D. Rayn. de Rom. Ecclesiæ Idololat: Lib. I. Chap. v. Num. xxi, &c

6 Gen. iii. 8 Hieron. ab. Oleastro

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