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had in their revenues; men held pri- fore any one clause in the bill could vare property for themselves alone, be taken into confideration. If it places of trust and profit for the good should be determined in the affirmaof the late; the rule held throughout tive, that parliament had not a right from the smallest and meanest to the to interfere, to reform, arrange, and, moft lucrative and great ; it was a con- if necessary, to resume the grants they dirion, from which the tenure of the A had made to the crown for public purcrown itself was not exempt. The poses; in short, to see to the proper immenfe revenue of the crown may by application to the monies they had ministers be employed to good or bad granted ; there was at once an end of purposes; if to the latter, who has the the liberties of this country. Give power to reform the abuses? Will any princes and their ministers the excluone maintain that parliament has no Blive right of disposing of fo confiderfich power? And if it has the power, able a part of the treatures of the nation it împlies a most glaring absurdity to without controul or without account, fay, that it has the power to reform, and our liberties from that instant and not the power to enquire, into would be gone for ever: that this was the abuse to be reformed, whether real an abfiract question, and therefore iuior fuppsed. I would desire to know C proper for discussion, he denied. The from any gentleman who hears me, proposition, as connected with the bill, whether, though the civil lift revenue was no abstract question ; because it was granted in the grofs, it was not amounted to a direct and specific desupposed to be granted for particular nial of its principal, which was a thopurposes or specific services? If so, if rough reform in the whole of the civil any of thöfe purpofes are found to be Dlift expenditure; and goes to a full of no further use, or if unneceffary answer to the petitioners, and a deoffices have been created, where is the cided opinion on the subject matrer of injustice to abolish them?

the petitions themselves. What you Mr. F-* thanked the right hon. feck, gentlemen, is improper in itfelf; gentleman who moved the question, no fuch reform is necessary, or if it for the opportunity it afforded to both Ebe, it is not in our power to give you parties to come to issue; it would spare any relief. much time and infinite trouble; it Ld B-ch-pin a fhort reply said, militated directly against the bill on the proposition suggeited by the right the table ; for certainly if that House hon. gentleman did not go the length was not competent to enquire into or which the hon. gentleman has reprecontroul the civil list expenditure, the F sented; that, without prouf of fomc bill was founded in the most glaring abuse, it would be unjust to interfere injustice; but when he gave credit for in the expenditure of the civil list; the direct open manner in which the, that it did not involve in ita denial of hou. gent, who suggested the propofi- the right to reform abuses; but it aftion had supported bis opinions, he inuft ferted, ent there ought to be a proof contess, that it involved doctrines of cof the abuse previous to the interfeå molt alarıning nature, and appeared sence. This, he contended, tras tupto him to be 'urterly subvertive of the ported by the conftitution, taking the firit principles of the constitution. right in the strongest manner to exist ; He therefore sincerely hoped, that beé and it would be expected from that *fore the House proceeded further, they side of the Houfe, that the office of would consent to let in the proposition secretary of state should be shewn to be of the hon. gentleman, and proceed to H useless, betore the House could condiscuss it, for it would be equally nu sent to its abolition). gatory and ridiculous to go into the Gen, C--1--obferred, that the coinmittee on the bill till the feale of propofitio: suggested by the righe the Houfe were taken upon that (!elo hon. gentien an was of intimite conletion. It must be first got rid oi be- quence; and, in his opinion, thoun


precede all further discussion eithered that right when an occasion offered, upon the principle or provisions of the then most

clearly every object of their bin. It would clear the way, to the meeting and deliberating was at an full and fair confideration of its several end; from the representatives of the parts; otherwise it would stand in the people, they were no longer the ferway like a locked door, or a bar of vants of the public who had sent thein iron, to put out or prevent every ar- A there; but the corrupt 'or servile tools gument but that of the principle of of those who paid and rewarded them the bill itfelf; and would continue to for their treachery or neglect of duty.. present one of the inoft idle and ridi Mr. Deing considered the civil culous of all conceivable scenes, a lift revenue as involving in it a trust grave and respectable affeinbly de- subjeet like every other species of trust bating upon the propriety of a mea: B to examination if this trust is faithfully fure, which they denied, or at least re- discharged or not, which it would be fused to acknowledge, that they were impossible to determine, without encompetent to consider or discuss. quiring into the expenditure ; and es

The Attor. Gen. owned, that he was qually impossible to enquire to any averse to the difcuffion of che question, good purposes, if the power to enquire for he could fairly declare, that if it was not accompanied by a power of Thould be 'put, he did not know whe-controul. To talk, therefore, of the ther he could give it a negative or an injustice of enquiry without previa affirmative.

ously proving some abuse, was, in his Mr. B-ke begged it might be de- opinion, as ridiculous as' to say that a terinined upon, before the House went man ought to be punished for the cominto a committee upon the bill. The Dmission of a crime, but that it would present doctrine, should it be adopted, be unjust to try him till you had went equally to the defeating every proved his guilt. He seemed to doubr, part of the bill, as well as those pro- whether the right hon. geiitleman vifions which the noble lord in the wished to have the sense of the House blue ribbon had avowed his public taken upon his question. difapprobation of

E Mr. R-by fáid; whatever doubts The resolving, however, that that the learned gentleman might entertain House was incompetent to enquire or of his wish to bring his proposition becontroul the expenditure of the civil fore 'the House in the mape of a molitt revenue; would not, though it tion, he had none himielf; for he "might be intended to effect it, destroy could fairly declare, that as he would the liberties of Britain. The people F not be bullied by one side of the must do what parliament had refused, House, so he was resolved not to be or rather what they were resolved ! not cajoled or flattered out of it by the to do, or had declared theinfelves in other. competent to effect; but he trusted Mr. 114-fi-d, who concluded the that health would follow. The pre- debute, was clearly of opinion, that the rogatives of the crown, the higheit and civil list revenue, being an investment. muit tranfcendant part of its power, made for the good of ihe nation, and were created, and ongkir of course to ap, licable in particular to the mainbe exercited, for the benefit of the tenance of the dignity and splendor of people, who created and conferred the crown, no diminution could be thein. Every right, therefore, his made which would not prove injurious Majetty enjoyet, as fovereign, was'a, to the people. About nine v'clock delegated righi, and consequently tub.h the question for discharging the orders ject to examination, correction, and of che day was pur, when the Houte connooo. It was particularly of the divided, Ayes 205, Noes 199. very ellence of that Houle to enquire, Mr. R-by himself was the only to regulate, and controul; and when- · ministerial member who vored in the ever it waved, concealed, or suspend- minority; upwards of 16 member,


most of them nearly conne&ted to him, fluence of the crown by abolishing for having voted for the order of the day necure places, and applying the savings As foon as the members returned to to be inade to the exigencits of the the House, it relolved it:elf into a state. committee on Mr. Burke's bill, and The first great consideration then Mr. Elwes was called to ihe chair. was, the lessening the influence of the

When the chairman came to the Acrown, which had enormously in. words in the first clause, for abolishing creafed of late years, and particularly the ofice commonly called or known to fince the accession of his present by the name of third secretary of State Majesty; hence the great source of all or secretary of flate to the colonies, our present evils. Stop up or cut off Ld B-cb-ap role, and made a long that great source, and every part of {peech in favour of the ofice, and a-B'he political machine would perform gainst the clauie.

its wouted functions in its usual inanHe maintained very broadly, and ner. This was the great object, as he roundly, chat that House had no right observed before, How was this to be to interfere in the expenditure of the effected ? By abolishing the means of King's civil list revenue, upon any that influence; by abolishing the esta. other ground than that of gross atusebiithments that created it. The pre. previously proved; and even then, fent, circumstances of this country confiftent with the special pofitive and made it likewise neceflary to approvested rights accruing from a legilla- priate the annual sums thus lavished in tive act, he doubred mach, though it effecting improper purposes, to very might be legal, whether it would be proper purposes, in his opinion, the constitutionally legal, to take from the relieving the people of part of iheis crown by act of parliament what clear.D burdens, which the very influence ly belonged to it. Most certainly, if complained of had been instrumental abuses were proved, it was competent in impofing. This, in his opinion, to that Hoose to point out to their fo- contained an abstract of the whole subvereign the proper anode of removing jett, and with the permission of the and correcting them; but, in his opi committee he should flightly touch on nion, that mode was not by passing a E each of those heads. law of relumption, which should ne Grear stress has been laid on the ver be resor ed' to in any given in- generofry of the crown on his present stance but in that of the last necessity, Majesty's accession, by giving up the when every other means had been civil lift revenues or duties, and taking tried, and had been unsuccessful; in lieu thereut. the flated fum of that it would give rise to'a noft dan- F 800.000 l. per annum. This was gerous and alarming precedient, as it a plausible argument, but is easily would to establith this maxim, that refuted. During the whylę reign of the legislature were the only proper the late king, he never came to parliajudges of the detailed exercise of the ment for alliitance but once; and that executive power. The principle would immediately after a most dangerous

atfect every eltablishment already made, Gand alarining rebellion, carried from or which might be hereafter made; the extremity of the island into the in short, it would divest the crown of very bowels' of the kingdom. His one of its most valuable rights and Majesty, after reigning twenty years, prerogatives, that of discharging the defired no more than 450,000l., not as duties vested in it by the constitution, a free grant or gratuity, but merely as the right of judgement in what man-Ha loan, for payment of which Mr. ner those duties could most faithfully Pelham, the minister of the day, pro: and effettually be discharged.

posed that the civil list revenries should Mr. T.T-nd observed, that the be mortgaged. Such was the conduct present bill had two objects in view, of the ministers of the late king; his che reduction or the letlening the in. majesty never afterwards came to par.



liament to have his debts-paid; and less office, that of 3d secretary of Italę. yet, when he died, there was a sum of All he could say farther was, that the upwards of 170,000!. due to him from country had raised itlelf to the utmoit the public, though the average amount pitch of national glory; that our por. of his annual receipts did not exceed effions had been extended to every 813,000l.

quarter of the globe; that our coloWhat was the state of the civil lindies had risen to a degree of wealth, revenue since the commencement of power, and population, unknown perthis prefent reign? His Majesty a- haps in the annals of any other coungreed to take 800,000!. in lieu of the try under the fun; and chat when we revenue appropriated to the mainte. had no more than two secretaries of nance and support of the civil lift; ftare; þur, on the contrary, the moment but afier a series of ciyo years war and B a third was appoined, the picture was five years peace, the noble lord in the completely reversed in all is features ; blue ribbon came to parliament to de we had lost thore very colonies, and mand the sum of 513,000l, or an a with them their trade; we had been verage fum of nearly 80,00 l per ann. disgraced in the eyes of all Europe, more. And upon what pretence? A and now threatened with roin on every most fallacious one!

fide. He hould be ashamed to tire In eight years after, the fame noble the patience of the committee, to prove lord caine again to parliainent for the what was already sufficiently clear to Lum of 618,000!. ; at the faine time every unprejudiced man in the House, had the modesty to ask for an addi- that the office of third secretary, if not cional sum of 100,000!. a year. a mischievous office, was an useless

Thus in the course of 14 years, or office; for which reason he should a period of two years foreigu war and pgive his vote for the clause, moved by wo years civil war in America, his his hon. friend, for abolishing it. Majeity had received from parliament, The Sic. at War contended, that in addition, and over and above his whatever the civil list revenue miglt stated revenue, the encrmous sum of be, it had not been exercised to ettert.. 1,131,ccol., while George II. in the the purposes on which the present bill course of a reign of thirty-two years, e was supposed to proceed; and therein which there was a moit dangerous fore that the Iivile was incompetedi 10 sebellion within the land for one year, interfere, or controul its expenditure : and two foreign wars of 14 years con that the House was not obliged to attinuance, received not a fingle thilling tend to the petitions of the people, more than his stated income, having further than the sentiments contained repaid the sum borrowed, as has al- in them accorded with their own seady been noted.

Fjudgement: that, fuppofing the perilí this plain undisguised state of ions were right in praying for the faéts did not contain the moit un abolition of all useless and unneceliasy quellionable presumptive evidence of places, the office proposed to be abothe influence of the crown, he meant Timed by this clawie did not come the divering its revenues to purposes within that de criprion. which dared not be avowed, in cor-G In antiver tų the right hol, genilen. rupting and influencing the meinbers man who ipoke lait, he observed, that of both houses of parliament, it would immediately after the revolution, para be vain to refort to other arguments, liament feuiled a sevenue of 7co,cool. for he knew of none more relative or upon K, Williain; and he appealed conclufive, nor indeed of any that to every gentle.nan's experience, if could be more fo; all therefore thaH 700,000!. ninety years ago was not remained to be done, in his opinion, mure than equal to 900,000!, a year was, to apply the principle io eita. now. Il appealed likewise to the blished to the particular clause before candour of gentiemen to declare open. the committee, the abolishing an ufe. ly their belict, whether K. William


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would have suffered any part of the his conscience,' that the business of revenue that had once been sextied state would be very well managed upon him for lite to have been re without him. Nay, atier he was sumed, In the early part of that dead, his office was buried with him king's reign, the civil list revenue was for a year; and when afterwards it granted from year 10 year; and he A rose again, and a fucceffor was apcomplained that by that mode he was pointed, no other reason could be only king for a year, and threatened given for its revival than the Irishto abdicate the throne if not redrefled. man's; “ the other two secretaries This induced parliament to settle his were doing nothing, and a third was revenue for life. Apply this fact to appointed to help them.” But, say the present argument. If parliament B gentlemen, the office proposed to be can break in upon bis Majesty's civil abolifhed by the present bill would list revenue this year, they may the only be the saving of a few thousand next, and so on, till they leave him pounds. Granted; but every plan only a bare pittance, and of confe- inust have a beginning, and he begged quence the mere madow of a king. thar gentlemen would look to the agMuch ftress, he said, had been laid on cgregate, not to the items. Trifling, the economy of the late reiyn, and of however, as įhe sum now proposed to the virtues of the late king, for whose be saved might appear to the gentle. memory no gentleinan had a greater men on the other side the House, it veneration than himself; but when would pay a regiment of cavalry ; he faid this, he thought it his duty to which alone was an object of great his present Majelly to affirm, that he Dconcern in our present national difwas second to none of his predecessors tress. He then digreffed from the in those princely virtues that add luftre faving to the mischief which, he said, and dignity to the crown he wears. the establishment of that office had

Mr. B-ke reprobated in the strong. done. It had involved the empire est terms, the doctrine which in this into all the miseries of a civil war; it enlightened age, in this country, and had loft us the American colonies, on this occalion, is openly avowed. Land biought us into a contest which It is worfe, he said, than roryism. threatened us with ruin. In 1768 It is jacobitisin, fubiimated and refined Ld H-1b-h, as the very first act of into a detestable system of the most oficial power, wrote his famous cirhumiliating flavery.

He could not a cular letter in the King's name, all'ur. gree with thosc who maintain, that ing the colonies that no taxes would work is always done with greater ex- F be laid upon them by the British par. pedirion by many servants than by liament; yet not five years after, the few, for one fruits to another ; poble lord in the blue ribbon introgroom becomes the favourite of his duced a bill for taxing them, or a 2011iporting mater, he gets an afilant ciliary propofition, as he called it, as for his conveniency; the afittant be. the intended basis of a law for that comes groom, and he brimself is purpote. The people of America saw straightway advanced into the finecurt Gby chis, that they could have no reliplace of master of the horses ; the rie:v ance on ininifterial promises, trot even groem gets Tom to clean the fiable, on the word of the King. What bas

Tom grows very hands, and then been the consequence?" All the horthere is no doing without Tom. The rors of the American war. He then thing lappers in higher departmen's; adverted to the lare promoion of Lit cren in the higheit orlices of stare here: Carlille to be filled of trade as a

upernumeraries. The lae lored mere Gnecure pace; and concluded Suffolk Wis a man ot benour; ho by observing, that the reljicetive oto would not have firen a ved in his bed. fices of secretary of state united again, chamber, resting his logs on his green would be better executed by feiver box, had he not been convinced in hands.




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